Difference between revisions of "Forum:Hosting options for Uncyclopedia (wikia)"

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(Vote here)
Line 69: Line 69:
 
*Llwy-ar-lawr: If you think there's a problem with the voting, then you need to check with other admins and see if there's a consensus among admins. Otherwise this is now one admin reverting another admin's edits. If admins can't work together, we'll need to have Fandom staff make a decision. {{User:Miley Spears/sig}} 03:17, March 13, 2019 (UTC)
 
*Llwy-ar-lawr: If you think there's a problem with the voting, then you need to check with other admins and see if there's a consensus among admins. Otherwise this is now one admin reverting another admin's edits. If admins can't work together, we'll need to have Fandom staff make a decision. {{User:Miley Spears/sig}} 03:17, March 13, 2019 (UTC)
 
*If you can successfully reunite with users on .co, it will definitely be the best option. One great Uncyclopedia again. However, if it isn't going like that, Miraheze will welcome your migration (though you might want to think about what to do with other Uncyc and Uncyc-inspired wikis there).--[[User:The Pioneer JP|The Pioneer JP]] ([[User talk:The Pioneer JP|talk]]) 04:16, March 13, 2019 (UTC)
 
*If you can successfully reunite with users on .co, it will definitely be the best option. One great Uncyclopedia again. However, if it isn't going like that, Miraheze will welcome your migration (though you might want to think about what to do with other Uncyc and Uncyc-inspired wikis there).--[[User:The Pioneer JP|The Pioneer JP]] ([[User talk:The Pioneer JP|talk]]) 04:16, March 13, 2019 (UTC)
 +
 +
== A more detailed discussion of the options ==
 +
 +
The options as laid out are as follows:
 +
# '''Miraheze'''
 +
# '''Carlb'''
 +
# '''Uncyclomedia (Lyrithya)'''
 +
# '''Llwy-ar-lawr'''
 +
 +
It is important that the Uncyclopedia community on this site be fully informed about the proposals presented here. For those of you who don't know me, I am Lyrithya (also Athyria and Isarra) and I have been a part of Uncyclopedia.co's technical team for the last six years. I currently work as a MediaWiki developer for various third-parties as well as on grant-funded projects for the Wikimedia Foundation, and have considerable experience working with MediaWiki, both as a developer and a sysadmin hosting numerous wikis. [[User:Athyria|Athyria]] ([[User talk:Athyria|talk]]) 05:08, March 13, 2019 (UTC)
 +
 +
=== Miraheze ===
 +
 +
Non-profit general wiki host.
 +
 +
Pros:
 +
* Has a team, so no dependence on a single person for handling bug reports, updates, etc.
 +
* Multiple servers in various locations.
 +
 +
Cons:
 +
* May not actually have the ''space'' for a wiki of this size.
 +
* Somewhat dubious management history - already failed once and had to rename due to an internal dispute.
 +
* Cannot maintain the full history (logs, file history, users, etc), requires a separate dump of files to be provided in order to upload them at all (carlb should be able to provide this, though), requires considerable manual effort to import even what they can import.
 +
* Unclear funding situation - no consistent source of income, despite considerable hosting costs.
 +
 +
=== Carlb ===
 +
 +
Hosts the mirror uncyclopedia as well as quite a few actually active other-language Uncyclopedias and all of the non-english Illogicopedias.
 +
 +
Pros:
 +
* Uncyclopedia hosted by an Uncyclopedian
 +
* Reliable backups, provides automated dumps of all wikis hosted.
 +
* Is probably not going away anytime soon - has been around the longest of any of the forks.
 +
* Will help you regardless of where you wind up going; values Uncyclopedias as Uncyclopedias.
 +
 +
Cons:
 +
* Managed by a single person, and thus cannot always respond quickly to things or do as much as a full team could.
 +
* Issues with uptime and server capacity - can almost certainly ''fit'' the project, but there have also been processing limitiations, historically.
 +
* Cannot maintain the full history (logs, users, etc), but would still be more complete than Miraheze.
 +
 +
=== Uncyclomedia.co (Lyrithya) ===
 +
 +
My team.
 +
 +
Pros:
 +
* A team, so no dependence on a single person for handling bug reports, updates, etc.
 +
* Almost 100% uptime over the past six years, possibly better than ''wikia''. Sorry. Fandom.
 +
* Is not going away - has been around for the past six years, and is also bringing on several other language projects, and thus we owe it to them all to continue.
 +
* Will maintain full site history, including old revisions, deleted content, and logs, and have clear history demonstrating our ability to do this. (We wrote the scripts which do this.)
 +
* Responsive to community concerns; heed consensus even when it's stupid.
 +
 +
Cons:
 +
* We will totally gloat about moving the site in under a week if we manage to pull off what we have in mind for how to do it.
 +
* Same server as the fork, technically.
 +
* Sysadmins are all poor and dying, and seem to prioritise uptime over their own sanity.
 +
 +
Two notes to address other concerns that have been raised:
 +
# We would absolutely be getting the full history - not just since the split, but all of the content before as well. Prior messages indicated otherwise for feasibility reasons, but having looked into the matter more thoroughly, it won't actually be feasible ''not'' to do it this way, as the sites have not just diverged in terms of new edits, but also page moves and deletions. So yes, this would be the full site history.
 +
# Despite this being the same host as the split wiki, there will be no requirement of merging, one way or the other. That would only happen later if both communities agree to... whatever. Seriously, please figure it out.
 +
 +
=== Llwy-ar-lawr's site ===
 +
 +
Pros:
 +
* Uncyclopedia hosted an Uncyclopedian.
 +
* Plans to maintain full site history, including old revisions, deleted content, and logs.
 +
 +
Cons:
 +
* Managed by a single person, and thus will not be able to respond quickly to things or do as much as a full team could.
 +
* No proof of concept or portfolio of prior experience provided; unclear technical capabilities or server capacity.
 +
* Unprofessional regard for other community members; [http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/index.php?title=Forum%3AHosting_options_for_Uncyclopedia_%28wikia%29&diff=6047173&oldid=6047172 removes votes she doesn't like and changes the rules at the same time in order to justify it].

Revision as of 05:08, 13 March 2019

Forums: Index > Village Dump > Hosting options for Uncyclopedia (wikia)
Note: This topic has been unedited for 222 days. It is considered archived - the discussion is over.
ScreenShotMockUp01.jpg

On the 31st March 2019 or shortly after, uncyclopedia.wikia.com will look like that above mock up screenshot. The existing data held on the Wikia/Fandom is likely to be deleted.

Since the initial announcement (see here https://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Forum:A message from Fandom), this website has backed up the data so nothing is expected to have been lost. This backup will include words and pictures with page histories and other data.

After extensive communications between the Uncyclopedia Administration Group and other parties, these are the considered options:-

  • Uncyclopedia.wikia moves to the servers run by Lyrithya. The existing database will therefore join the existing arrangement there which sees illogicopedia and uncyclopedia.co sharing the same servers. This can be referred to the 'co' option.
  • Uncyclopedia.wikia moves to the servers run by Carlb. Carlb was one of the earliest Uncyclopedians and hosts other foreign language uncyclopedias in the style of the original. This can be referred to as the 'Carlb' option.
  • Uncyclopeda.wikia moves to a server run by Miraheze, a wiki farm. The contact is The Pioneer JP. This is the Miraheze option.
  • Uncyclopedia.wikia moves to a server to be administered by Llwy-ar-lawr who is an active administrator on this website.
  • Voting:Users and administrators/bureaucrats will have equal value as regards the vote count.
  • Restrictions:No I.P. voting permitted. No account created here after 25th February 2019 will be able to vote either.

Uncyclopedians who have been active administrators (five edits or more) at uncyclopedia.co from 25th February 2017 to 25th February 2019 are also asked to recuse themselves from voting here as that would be a conflict of interest and could effect the the outcome.

The length of voting will be shorter than normal as there is limited time to come to a decision. I suggest this vote is wrapped up by Tuesday 19th March.

Since there has been a number of user impersonations this year, extra vigilance will be force when coming to this vote. --Laurels.gifRomArtus*Imperator ITRA (Orate) ® 23:25, March 12, 2019 (UTC)

And also:

  • Must have five edits to this site before 26 February 2019.
  • Active editors on the fork must have five edits to this site between 1 January 2018 and 26 February 2019.

Llwy-ar-lawr talkcontribs • 01:21 13 March 2019

Vote here

  • Miraheze —IvanRider 00:14, March 13, 2019 (UTC)
    • Note: I've copied my most major contribution to this site to the Dozerfleet Database, pending slight rewrites.
  • Uncyclopedia.co King Admin Alden Loveshade, by proclamation of Sannse most noble ruler of the Internet King of the Internet Alden Loveshade??? (royal court)  00:59, March 13, 2019 (UTC)
  • Uncyclopedia.co --— Dǐll Kevlar (talk) 01:07, March 13, 2019 (UTC)
  • Miraheze. It is the only option presented in which one or several Uncyclopedians will not be de facto owners of the franchise. Assurances given by the Forkers are due no weight by anyone who might come to be regarded as a "toxic presence." This includes Lyrithya's statement that the two databases will be maintained separately. Miraheze is technically able to host us and has a disinterested group of Stewards to hold sensitive powers such as checkuser. Its finances are precarious. This solution might not be the right one forever; true about all the options, as it was about Wikia too. Spıke Radiomicrophone.gif01:17 13-Mar-19
Spike, my first reaction to your expressed desire to go to Miraheze and your opposition to a private server (any private server) was that your concerns were ill-founded. However, after watching some of the drama in this forum which was convened for the rather straightforward task of picking a new host, I realize you may be right, and not just for the reasons you've cited. Any individual taking on the task of hosting this site is going to be subject to attack by everybody who thought they had a better idea (whether it was to shut down the site and "merge" with the Fork, or something else). Only a disinterested third party -- such as, for instance, Miraheze -- is likely to escape that. My concerns about Miraheze still stand (so I'm not changing my vote) but I certainly recognize the validity of the arguments for going there. Snarglefoop (talk) 03:54, March 13, 2019 (UTC)
  • I'm offering to host the site because I'm the only one I know is willing and able to retain the full history, or close to it, and I'm regularly available for tech support. Logs and file histories in particular contain important parts of the past. Carlb and Miraheze are second choices. Carlb is obviously reliable because he's been running his wikis for over a decade, and he's free, but he still hasn't fixed the thumbnail problems. I would like to know if Miraheze is willing to import anything other than page content and current images. If so, cool, that addresses my concern and I don't have to do the work. I can run the grabber scripts on the new site, so if they go down, we have a backup that we can take somewhere else.
    As for the fork, I don't consider this a real hosting option because the full history won't be retained and they just want us over there to facilitate a "merger", which means shutting the site down. Yes, the history will still exist, but this site would be incomplete without the fork, and pre-2013 pages present here but deleted there would be gone from both.
    I think who has the power and how it is used is more important than whether the site is privately owned, but that's me. ❦ Llwy-ar-lawr talkcontribs • 01:50 13 March 2019
  • For the spoon merging with the fork, Uncyclopedia.co Admin DAP Dame Pleb Com. <font="Times New Roman">Miley <font="Times New Roman">Spears (talk) 02:29, March 13, 2019 (UTC)
  • Either Carlb's server, or Llwy-ar-lawr's "new server" option. See discussion below (where I stupidly "voted" to start with) for the reasoning. Snarglefoop (talk) 02:35, March 13, 2019 (UTC)
  • Either keep me posted either way. How pissed is Fandom at you? --Factfinder510 (talk) 04:44, March 13, 2019 (UTC)
  • I say Uncyclopedia.co. Hey, remember me? ~[ths] UotM My Farticles. Gobshite of the Month March 2012 Magician of the Month March 2012 Uncyclopedian of the Month November 2012 05:04, 03/13/2019

Discussion

(Immediately below is in reference to Dill Kevlar voting)

  • Not eligible. ❦ Llwy-ar-lawr talkcontribs • 01:21 13 March 2019
    Under what term? --— Dǐll Kevlar (talk) 01:24, March 13, 2019 (UTC)
    Oh, disregard the question. I guess your reader community doesn't matter. --— Dǐll Kevlar (talk) 01:25, March 13, 2019 (UTC)
    The restrictions are laid out above. This vote is for editors of this site, not the "reader community", which you do not represent anyway. ❦ Llwy-ar-lawr talkcontribs • 01:50 13 March 2019
    Someone brought to my attention that you added a rule after my vote was added. That is super scummy. In addition, you are incorrect about me representing the reader community. I am retracting the strike. --— Dǐll Kevlar (talk) 02:17, March 13, 2019 (UTC)
    "Voting:Users and administrators/bureaucrats will have equal value as regards the vote count." It says "users" not "article editors." Admin DAP Dame Pleb Com. <font="Times New Roman">Miley <font="Times New Roman">Spears (talk) 02:27, March 13, 2019 (UTC)
    Romartus and I already agreed on that part by email. I would have added it before Dill's vote if I'd seen the forum in time. Dill is not here in good faith and should not get any more attention. ❦ Llwy-ar-lawr talkcontribs • 02:39 13 March 2019
    You eliminated many uncyclopedia.co users and myself because you already knew what their vote would be. These terms that you fabricated are biased and this vote's result should not be taken into consideration by Fandom. My posts are in good faith. In fact, I'd like to think "my unfaithful contributions" just exposed some shady behavior. --— Dǐll Kevlar (talk) 02:53, March 13, 2019 (UTC)
    Llwy-ar-lawr, maybe that's the way you run things when you're in charge, but that's not the way Fandom works. Two people are not in charge of this site. It belongs to everybody who comes here. That's in Fandom ToU which overrules anything posted here. Admin DAP Dame Pleb Com. <font="Times New Roman">Miley <font="Times New Roman">Spears (talk) 02:55, March 13, 2019 (UTC)
  • I understand that point well, Llwy. Unfortunately, I can not and would not vote to give the impression of a conflict of interest. I put my arguments shortly on the other forum about this vote. Rhubella beach.jpg Rhubella Avatar-02.png Rhubella Marie, the rat sockpreppie preppiedits Rhubella Avatar-01.png 02:08, March 13, 2019 (UTC)
  • Either Carlb's server, or Llwy-ar-lawr's "new server" option. CarlB's servers have shown signs of being substantially faster than they were in the past, and I trust his ability to fetch the entire site and keep the site going, as well as his general level headedness. I also trust Llwy-ar-lawr to successfully pull the whole site to a new server and administer the new site effectively, though the actual, physical server on which it would reside remains unclear.
    Miraheze makes me nervous for a number of reasons, not the least of which is their extremely fragile financial situation. I'm also not convinced we could get the entire site contents moved there without a great deal of assistance from the sysadmins, which I'm not convinced would be forthcoming.
    Lyrithya's servers remain a proven option, but I'm not aware of any assurance that the entire site would be pulled in (as opposed to the parts which are considered to be "different" in some way from what's currently on the Fork), and I'm not at all happy about the implication that it would be a stepping stone to a so-called "merger". In other words, moving to Lyrithya's servers seems a little too much like turning it into a "parts car" for use in maintaining the Fork.
    With all of that said, I'd ultimately find any arrangement that keeps the site alive and functional to be a Good Thing, and probably an improvement, at least in terms of functionality and appearance, over the current Wikia version (which rather looks like a flock of geese have been pecking at it -- ugh!). No doubt we'll lose search engine rank-ness as a result of leaving Wikia, but so it goes -- that can't be helped. Snarglefoop (talk) 02:31, March 13, 2019 (UTC)
  • "Uncyclopedians who have been active administrators (five edits or more) at uncyclopedia.co from 25th February 2017 to 25th February 2019 are also asked to recuse themselves from voting here as that would be a conflict of interest and could effect the the outcome."
    Somebody who's active both here and there shouldn't be restricted from voting. That is totally not fair! Admin DAP Dame Pleb Com. <font="Times New Roman">Miley <font="Times New Roman">Spears (talk) 02:44, March 13, 2019 (UTC)
    Ok, it doesn't say they can't vote, they're just being asked not to vote. That's like somebody of one political party standing outside the voting booth and telling people of another party they don't want them to vote. That's called intimidation. Try doing that in American and you can arrested for it. Admin DAP Dame Pleb Com. <font="Times New Roman">Miley <font="Times New Roman">Spears (talk) 02:47, March 13, 2019 (UTC)
    Not my idea, not my problem. ❦ Llwy-ar-lawr talkcontribs • 02:49 13 March 2019
  • You can vote for a merger if you like, Miley, but that's not one of the options. The site will remain separate for now; we're deciding where to put the content. ❦ Llwy-ar-lawr talkcontribs • 02:55 13 March 2019
  • Llwy-ar-lawr: If you think there's a problem with the voting, then you need to check with other admins and see if there's a consensus among admins. Otherwise this is now one admin reverting another admin's edits. If admins can't work together, we'll need to have Fandom staff make a decision. Admin DAP Dame Pleb Com. <font="Times New Roman">Miley <font="Times New Roman">Spears (talk) 03:17, March 13, 2019 (UTC)
  • If you can successfully reunite with users on .co, it will definitely be the best option. One great Uncyclopedia again. However, if it isn't going like that, Miraheze will welcome your migration (though you might want to think about what to do with other Uncyc and Uncyc-inspired wikis there).--The Pioneer JP (talk) 04:16, March 13, 2019 (UTC)

A more detailed discussion of the options

The options as laid out are as follows:

  1. Miraheze
  2. Carlb
  3. Uncyclomedia (Lyrithya)
  4. Llwy-ar-lawr

It is important that the Uncyclopedia community on this site be fully informed about the proposals presented here. For those of you who don't know me, I am Lyrithya (also Athyria and Isarra) and I have been a part of Uncyclopedia.co's technical team for the last six years. I currently work as a MediaWiki developer for various third-parties as well as on grant-funded projects for the Wikimedia Foundation, and have considerable experience working with MediaWiki, both as a developer and a sysadmin hosting numerous wikis. Athyria (talk) 05:08, March 13, 2019 (UTC)

Miraheze

Non-profit general wiki host.

Pros:

  • Has a team, so no dependence on a single person for handling bug reports, updates, etc.
  • Multiple servers in various locations.

Cons:

  • May not actually have the space for a wiki of this size.
  • Somewhat dubious management history - already failed once and had to rename due to an internal dispute.
  • Cannot maintain the full history (logs, file history, users, etc), requires a separate dump of files to be provided in order to upload them at all (carlb should be able to provide this, though), requires considerable manual effort to import even what they can import.
  • Unclear funding situation - no consistent source of income, despite considerable hosting costs.

Carlb

Hosts the mirror uncyclopedia as well as quite a few actually active other-language Uncyclopedias and all of the non-english Illogicopedias.

Pros:

  • Uncyclopedia hosted by an Uncyclopedian
  • Reliable backups, provides automated dumps of all wikis hosted.
  • Is probably not going away anytime soon - has been around the longest of any of the forks.
  • Will help you regardless of where you wind up going; values Uncyclopedias as Uncyclopedias.

Cons:

  • Managed by a single person, and thus cannot always respond quickly to things or do as much as a full team could.
  • Issues with uptime and server capacity - can almost certainly fit the project, but there have also been processing limitiations, historically.
  • Cannot maintain the full history (logs, users, etc), but would still be more complete than Miraheze.

Uncyclomedia.co (Lyrithya)

My team.

Pros:

  • A team, so no dependence on a single person for handling bug reports, updates, etc.
  • Almost 100% uptime over the past six years, possibly better than wikia. Sorry. Fandom.
  • Is not going away - has been around for the past six years, and is also bringing on several other language projects, and thus we owe it to them all to continue.
  • Will maintain full site history, including old revisions, deleted content, and logs, and have clear history demonstrating our ability to do this. (We wrote the scripts which do this.)
  • Responsive to community concerns; heed consensus even when it's stupid.

Cons:

  • We will totally gloat about moving the site in under a week if we manage to pull off what we have in mind for how to do it.
  • Same server as the fork, technically.
  • Sysadmins are all poor and dying, and seem to prioritise uptime over their own sanity.

Two notes to address other concerns that have been raised:

  1. We would absolutely be getting the full history - not just since the split, but all of the content before as well. Prior messages indicated otherwise for feasibility reasons, but having looked into the matter more thoroughly, it won't actually be feasible not to do it this way, as the sites have not just diverged in terms of new edits, but also page moves and deletions. So yes, this would be the full site history.
  2. Despite this being the same host as the split wiki, there will be no requirement of merging, one way or the other. That would only happen later if both communities agree to... whatever. Seriously, please figure it out.

Llwy-ar-lawr's site

Pros:

  • Uncyclopedia hosted an Uncyclopedian.
  • Plans to maintain full site history, including old revisions, deleted content, and logs.

Cons: